"She wasn’t designed in her own right, to fulfill her own purpose.
She was designed to help him with his.
Nothing ambiguous about that at all."
There's an orthodox podcast I listen to, and one episode they pointed out that when mankind was 1, the first commandment of God was given to him. But then after, when mankind is split apart into man and woman, the commandment is also split. Adam is to put creation into order, and Eve is to fill it with life.
Of course, neither can really do it right without the other. Eve's need for Adam is obvious, but your posted picture of how sparse men are willing to live inadvertently (IMO) points to how Adam needs Eve. Sure men can organize a space, make the shelter, build the house, but it takes a woman's touch to make it home. To make it nice.
I also liked the book "The Silence of Adam" - which made a compelling argument that from the original language in Genesis, when Eve was being tempted, Adam was standing RIGHT THERE... and did nothing. And that's to man's eternal shame that we were cowards when women needed us. I generally buy into it because it seems to fit with a repeated pattern of men and women throughout the world and history. And if anything, it's the first account of the knight rescuing the damsel from the dragon - only it's a story where the knight failed. And so we keep telling the story of the knight succeeding, because deep in our soul, humanity still feel that aching failure and regret of that day.
A) Personally I enjoy female company more than male overall. Obviously in a love relationship (not in one at the moment) I prize the company of my mate more than any other person. We are probably wired to enjoy opposite-sex company as much as we are for sex.
B) In a good relationship, neither person is above the other in hierarchy, but as you mention, there is a set of roles each sex tends to gravitate into.
C) I am a Christian but don't think these ancient writers were correct about women
D) Obviously both sexes express the nature of God to an equal extent.
I wonder if you’re a minority on point A. In my own life it has been rare to find a man who actually likes women if the possibility of sex is completely off the table
I'm mostly identify as asexual and have had like 20 different female friends since kindergarten, and only one ever male friend. I also have Aspergers, so maybe there is something there, but I do go out of my way to avoid men wherever I can, be it doctors, supermarket checkouts or when it comes to my private students.
I'm sorry you were in such a dark place, and I completely understand why you wrote this and wrestled and still wrestle with those feelings. While I agree with some points, I disagree with others. I particularly disagree with placing blame solely on women for the fall. Adam stood by silently and also ate the fruit, which is why God punished him too--clearly showing he wasn't absolved of responsibility. Regarding Tertullian's quote at the beginning and this entire section:
"Following the pattern of feminine inferiority, Irenaeus considered women generally as the cause of sin and the subsequent alienation of humanity from God. However, he emphasised that Mary's piety was far more important than Eve's curse. For him, the 'virgin Mary' has redeemed all women from the sinful innate lust of the female gender (Sawyer 1996:157). After the same pattern, Clement of Alexandria proposed that God took away the weakness of Adam and used it to create Eve. For this reason, he considered women as weak, limited, passive, 'castrated', 'immature', 'licentious, and unjust' (Ide 1984:66)" -->
--> This is what happens when men twist scripture out of context. Blasphemous. I need to read some scripture to cleanse my spiritual palate lol. I follow Pastor Chris Rosebrough on YouTube, even though I'm not Lutheran myself, I agree with a lot of their theology and especially appreciate how he analyzes the Bible in the original Koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Context is everything.
I thought about putting an advisory on it in case someone would be better off NOT reading it right now. But to your point, yes, there are many who twist scripture to their own ends. It can be harder over time to wonder if they’re right and I’m just placating myself with my own preferred truth
For sure, I understand and respect everyone's individual spiritual journey. I myself have experienced changes in my beliefs since becoming a Christian, so I hold no judgment towards anyone. I am constantly learning and growing, and I know my beliefs will continue to shift in the future. I didn't mean to come off as disrespectful or callous and I sincerely apologize if I did. I have the utmost respect for you and I believe many women feel the same way, at least, I know I have. It's truly awful. This is a subject that we all need to sit and wrestle with.
Your essay hit close to home. When marriage works well, it shines brightly on the designer’s plan.
But we men and women, incomplete on our own, act so imperfectly.
As a male family physician with fibromyalgia, struggling with discouragement in my effort to launch my first novels (romantic mildly-dystopian epic adventures in the Stone Age, Sarai and Abram stories with roles reversed) I need my wife’s support to persevere. Without her approval, I tend to charge ahead anyway until I strike burnout. (Burnout posts are in the works!)
I will fail to reveal cosmic design in marriage if I don’t operate successfully within the structure myself. Thank you for your encouraging insights. I will seek my wife’s approval of my writing more earnestly. If I don’t neglect the other aspects of our life together, perhaps she will see the potential hero in me and I will rise to the occasion.
Very thought-provoking read that I have to say I disagree with.
The only part I agree with is that the urges are real, to dominate for men, and to be dominated for women. However, I believe many descriptions of these urges in the Bible are just that descriptions, not prescriptions.
Ephesians 5:21-33 is a more prescriptive statement in the new testament. Depending on your interpretation people then subscribe to mutual submission or male led relationships, but certainly not one with the dynamics you refer to.
A great book to read on the subject of the dominant/submissive urges and what they mean from a religious perspective is "Unwanted: how sexual brokenness reveals our way to healing" by Jay Stringer. I don't fully buy into the book but at least it should provoke thought and introspection.
I think you’re correct on the issue of description versus prescription. What I tried to get across in the article is that so many of the descriptions in both the Bible and by common people today are alike. We all see the same behaviors and preferences because we were made at a cellular level to possess them. This caused me to wonder Why that would be important. It can be a hard pill for me to swallow and I suspect other women, but it seems that our nature is very much baked in.
It seems like you are Catholic, and so believe in the fallen nature of humans, specifically Genesis 3:16, which is again descriptive "your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."
Part of being Christian is struggling against one's base desires for destruction of others and self. The optimism is there, in the Bible. Why do you only attend to the pessimistic descriptors instead of the optimistic gospel message?
It’s hard because our husbands will never be perfect, as Christ is perfect. For us to be obedient to our God-ordained role, it can sometimes mean following our husband into destruction. To lean into our natural desires for submission means trusting that our husband will follow Christ and care for us as he should. I am lucky that, 15 years in, he does and always has. But many (the majority) of my friends haven’t been so blessed. Humans are indeed fallen, so women staying true to our role and keeping our hand off the wheel can be hard, and it can be sad when that trust is misplaced.
Wow. You took a tough hypothesis—the subservience of woman to man—and ran with it. You identified profound, disturbing differences in the brains of men and women and put them in writing. Then you connected both design and designer with the distinction. Nice work.
"She wasn’t designed in her own right, to fulfill her own purpose.
She was designed to help him with his.
Nothing ambiguous about that at all."
There's an orthodox podcast I listen to, and one episode they pointed out that when mankind was 1, the first commandment of God was given to him. But then after, when mankind is split apart into man and woman, the commandment is also split. Adam is to put creation into order, and Eve is to fill it with life.
Of course, neither can really do it right without the other. Eve's need for Adam is obvious, but your posted picture of how sparse men are willing to live inadvertently (IMO) points to how Adam needs Eve. Sure men can organize a space, make the shelter, build the house, but it takes a woman's touch to make it home. To make it nice.
I also liked the book "The Silence of Adam" - which made a compelling argument that from the original language in Genesis, when Eve was being tempted, Adam was standing RIGHT THERE... and did nothing. And that's to man's eternal shame that we were cowards when women needed us. I generally buy into it because it seems to fit with a repeated pattern of men and women throughout the world and history. And if anything, it's the first account of the knight rescuing the damsel from the dragon - only it's a story where the knight failed. And so we keep telling the story of the knight succeeding, because deep in our soul, humanity still feel that aching failure and regret of that day.
I’ve never heard of that book and it sounds worth reading. That’s a good perspective for us to have
A) Personally I enjoy female company more than male overall. Obviously in a love relationship (not in one at the moment) I prize the company of my mate more than any other person. We are probably wired to enjoy opposite-sex company as much as we are for sex.
B) In a good relationship, neither person is above the other in hierarchy, but as you mention, there is a set of roles each sex tends to gravitate into.
C) I am a Christian but don't think these ancient writers were correct about women
D) Obviously both sexes express the nature of God to an equal extent.
I wonder if you’re a minority on point A. In my own life it has been rare to find a man who actually likes women if the possibility of sex is completely off the table
I'm mostly identify as asexual and have had like 20 different female friends since kindergarten, and only one ever male friend. I also have Aspergers, so maybe there is something there, but I do go out of my way to avoid men wherever I can, be it doctors, supermarket checkouts or when it comes to my private students.
I’m so sorry.
I'm sorry you were in such a dark place, and I completely understand why you wrote this and wrestled and still wrestle with those feelings. While I agree with some points, I disagree with others. I particularly disagree with placing blame solely on women for the fall. Adam stood by silently and also ate the fruit, which is why God punished him too--clearly showing he wasn't absolved of responsibility. Regarding Tertullian's quote at the beginning and this entire section:
"Following the pattern of feminine inferiority, Irenaeus considered women generally as the cause of sin and the subsequent alienation of humanity from God. However, he emphasised that Mary's piety was far more important than Eve's curse. For him, the 'virgin Mary' has redeemed all women from the sinful innate lust of the female gender (Sawyer 1996:157). After the same pattern, Clement of Alexandria proposed that God took away the weakness of Adam and used it to create Eve. For this reason, he considered women as weak, limited, passive, 'castrated', 'immature', 'licentious, and unjust' (Ide 1984:66)" -->
--> This is what happens when men twist scripture out of context. Blasphemous. I need to read some scripture to cleanse my spiritual palate lol. I follow Pastor Chris Rosebrough on YouTube, even though I'm not Lutheran myself, I agree with a lot of their theology and especially appreciate how he analyzes the Bible in the original Koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Context is everything.
I thought about putting an advisory on it in case someone would be better off NOT reading it right now. But to your point, yes, there are many who twist scripture to their own ends. It can be harder over time to wonder if they’re right and I’m just placating myself with my own preferred truth
For sure, I understand and respect everyone's individual spiritual journey. I myself have experienced changes in my beliefs since becoming a Christian, so I hold no judgment towards anyone. I am constantly learning and growing, and I know my beliefs will continue to shift in the future. I didn't mean to come off as disrespectful or callous and I sincerely apologize if I did. I have the utmost respect for you and I believe many women feel the same way, at least, I know I have. It's truly awful. This is a subject that we all need to sit and wrestle with.
Your essay hit close to home. When marriage works well, it shines brightly on the designer’s plan.
But we men and women, incomplete on our own, act so imperfectly.
As a male family physician with fibromyalgia, struggling with discouragement in my effort to launch my first novels (romantic mildly-dystopian epic adventures in the Stone Age, Sarai and Abram stories with roles reversed) I need my wife’s support to persevere. Without her approval, I tend to charge ahead anyway until I strike burnout. (Burnout posts are in the works!)
I will fail to reveal cosmic design in marriage if I don’t operate successfully within the structure myself. Thank you for your encouraging insights. I will seek my wife’s approval of my writing more earnestly. If I don’t neglect the other aspects of our life together, perhaps she will see the potential hero in me and I will rise to the occasion.
You have encouraged me. TAT
I’m so glad to hear your wife is there to encourage and motivate you! I definitely understand the burnout aspect
Very thought-provoking read that I have to say I disagree with.
The only part I agree with is that the urges are real, to dominate for men, and to be dominated for women. However, I believe many descriptions of these urges in the Bible are just that descriptions, not prescriptions.
Ephesians 5:21-33 is a more prescriptive statement in the new testament. Depending on your interpretation people then subscribe to mutual submission or male led relationships, but certainly not one with the dynamics you refer to.
A great book to read on the subject of the dominant/submissive urges and what they mean from a religious perspective is "Unwanted: how sexual brokenness reveals our way to healing" by Jay Stringer. I don't fully buy into the book but at least it should provoke thought and introspection.
I think you’re correct on the issue of description versus prescription. What I tried to get across in the article is that so many of the descriptions in both the Bible and by common people today are alike. We all see the same behaviors and preferences because we were made at a cellular level to possess them. This caused me to wonder Why that would be important. It can be a hard pill for me to swallow and I suspect other women, but it seems that our nature is very much baked in.
Is it so hard to admit though?
It seems like you are Catholic, and so believe in the fallen nature of humans, specifically Genesis 3:16, which is again descriptive "your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you."
Part of being Christian is struggling against one's base desires for destruction of others and self. The optimism is there, in the Bible. Why do you only attend to the pessimistic descriptors instead of the optimistic gospel message?
It’s hard because our husbands will never be perfect, as Christ is perfect. For us to be obedient to our God-ordained role, it can sometimes mean following our husband into destruction. To lean into our natural desires for submission means trusting that our husband will follow Christ and care for us as he should. I am lucky that, 15 years in, he does and always has. But many (the majority) of my friends haven’t been so blessed. Humans are indeed fallen, so women staying true to our role and keeping our hand off the wheel can be hard, and it can be sad when that trust is misplaced.
Wow. You took a tough hypothesis—the subservience of woman to man—and ran with it. You identified profound, disturbing differences in the brains of men and women and put them in writing. Then you connected both design and designer with the distinction. Nice work.
TAT
Thank you. It was tough to write honestly, and it sat in my drafts for months. But I figured it was time to let it out
This is what the "original redpill" was 20+ years ago, before social media.