I write books for reluctant readers, or what the industry says is Boy, because you know “boys don’t read.” I started writing books for the 9-13 year old boy because while I love comic books, and graphic novels, that’s all my kids would bring home from the library. That was all there was. I wanted a book that was fun, and an adventure for them. So I went and wrote and as a result: I was rejected by 10 publishers all telling me the same thing, there isn’t a profitable market. Four books, two awards, and over 10k in sales (which is still small, but better than most indies), I can say there is a market, a very hungry market.
This read hit me hard. I compare the sheer variety of books I had to read growing up in the 70s with what I see on the shelves today. I had all the 50s, 60s, and what was being written then - a treasure trove for boys.
Reading and looking through the equivalent spaces today the covers and writing seems bland and generic, aimed at the least common denominator and don't inspire in the same way. Combined with the franchise dynasties of movies and lack of unsupervised time, I often think something has been lost.
Men absolutely do read! Demographics of readers of Baen-published authors supports this. And Baen authors like John Ringo, Tom Kratman, Travis Taylor and John van Stry are enjoying significant success because they know what men like to read.
> From my experience – as a man – a good mixture of men and women tends to create a more polite workplace. Too many men and the atmosphere can get a bit rough and in-your-face … unfortunately the opposite end of the spectrum is also true, a female heavy workplace becomes bland, risk averse
This matches my experience in software. My best job had a healthy mix of men & women.
Great interview, and I especially appreciated his optimism.
This was an excellent article! I feel like Westerns and writers like Louis might be making a comeback. I've seen so much talk about people getting into the older books and discussing them. Not a male writer/reader but I'm a writer who is working on a Gothic Western/Horror and this is so timely. Awesome interview, Kristin!
I'll be watching how Baen goes. It's great there is that option. I agree the demand is there and I'm just an observer. Love your substack and YT channel!
For various reasons there will never was and never will be a market for ‘boy culture’ the way there is for ‘girl culture’ in publishing or any other art/culture industry because somewhat ironically girlhood—womanhood is able to stand on it’s own much easier it’s also inclusive in a way boyhood—manhood isn’t not due to ‘nature’ but do to a desire for exclusion (male culture) in contrast to a desire for inclusion (female/femme culture) that’s so inclusive that it now encompasses any/everyone feminine-presenting, woman or no. Not to imply that there’s no difference between say gay male culture or trans woman culture and cis/bio-girl culture; but it’s worth noting that there’s a lot of overlap between those cultural identities. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that a majority of gay men have an easier time being apart of ‘girl culture’ than they do ‘boy culture’. There’s been good Sci-Fi/genre fiction, most guys don’t show up for it I know because I’m a guy that does. Also on the topic of ‘edginess’ I think there should be some acknowledgment that there are ‘edgy’ authors making waves, they’re almost exclusively women putting the ‘Dark Romance’ genre on the map and putting it right next to ‘Extreme Horror’ in terms of content. Dark Romance is making money but when the topic of ‘edge’ comes up the default is like Shadow The Hedgehog or something. Obviously this is about boys and getting them to read but the sooner we can get to the place femme-oriented fiction is at (i.e. reckoning with the fact that there’s definitely a lot of young girls reading not-age-appropriate material) the sooner we can all get to the heart of the problem; the fact that due to social media’s omnipresence we don’t have the luxury of age bracket delineation anymore. All culture is all culture now, it’s all the same going in the same feeds (save for certain algorithmic silos). This is getting ranty so I’ll end it by saying I think the solution to getting boys to read is to move on from sex/gender-based marketing not because it’s irrelevant but because it’ll always work for femininity in a way it never can for (current) mainstream masculinity economically, more importantly more importantly there are worse things than boys reading ‘girl fiction’ especially now that best-selling women authors are exploring themes of sexuality and violence in ways that only fanfic communities saw coming a decade+ ago.
Omigosh Kristin. The choice of interview subject plus your thoughtful questions made this article. So much to think about, so much to learn from in such a tragically neglected space.
Not least, it's refreshing to see someone passionate and competent actually managing an iconic literary legacy, rather than simply just franchise-farming it.
Meanwhile, when I read category fiction I admire female authors doing characters and imagery (in which they often excel) while recognising full well that they're not tackling the problems I'm interested in, and this has been happening since the nineties. Never having experienced a follicular phase myself or planned to gestate a foetus I'm simply not obsessed with processes for selecting 'the one', and never shall be. It's not that relationships and individuals don't matter to men -- they do, but men have always had to learn to build to whatever opportunities present with whoever's around them at the time, so the who and why are evaluated against the what and the how, as you might expect. Exploiting the what and how toward who and why is more of a female prioritisation and to men can feel like an idealistic cheat.
My interests having been crowded out by three decades of well-deserved yet ill-targeted female literary productivity, I now mostly read creative non-fiction because it's closer to good stories about stuff I'd like to think about than the endless flavours of 'romantasy' (great term) flooding my favourite genres. If people who knew what they were talking about could write inventively about stuff that I already thought about, then I'd certainly read them more.
In any case, the reflection and research that went into this interview is much appreciated, Kristin. It's head and shoulders above what I normally see in literary commentary. Many kudos.
I write books for reluctant readers, or what the industry says is Boy, because you know “boys don’t read.” I started writing books for the 9-13 year old boy because while I love comic books, and graphic novels, that’s all my kids would bring home from the library. That was all there was. I wanted a book that was fun, and an adventure for them. So I went and wrote and as a result: I was rejected by 10 publishers all telling me the same thing, there isn’t a profitable market. Four books, two awards, and over 10k in sales (which is still small, but better than most indies), I can say there is a market, a very hungry market.
This read hit me hard. I compare the sheer variety of books I had to read growing up in the 70s with what I see on the shelves today. I had all the 50s, 60s, and what was being written then - a treasure trove for boys.
Reading and looking through the equivalent spaces today the covers and writing seems bland and generic, aimed at the least common denominator and don't inspire in the same way. Combined with the franchise dynasties of movies and lack of unsupervised time, I often think something has been lost.
Love this history lesson and Beau's perspective. I wrote a piece mourning the general turning-away from masculinity in fiction. I didn't know I wasn't alone at the time. Now I'm seeing this perspective more and more. You may enjoy the article. Cheers! https://open.substack.com/pub/leovaughn/p/make-masculinity-great-again?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=el4qy
Men absolutely do read! Demographics of readers of Baen-published authors supports this. And Baen authors like John Ringo, Tom Kratman, Travis Taylor and John van Stry are enjoying significant success because they know what men like to read.
> From my experience – as a man – a good mixture of men and women tends to create a more polite workplace. Too many men and the atmosphere can get a bit rough and in-your-face … unfortunately the opposite end of the spectrum is also true, a female heavy workplace becomes bland, risk averse
This matches my experience in software. My best job had a healthy mix of men & women.
Great interview, and I especially appreciated his optimism.
This was an excellent article! I feel like Westerns and writers like Louis might be making a comeback. I've seen so much talk about people getting into the older books and discussing them. Not a male writer/reader but I'm a writer who is working on a Gothic Western/Horror and this is so timely. Awesome interview, Kristin!
Thanks! I think with indie pub and smaller presses like Baen, there will indeed be a comeback. The demand is certainly there!
I'll be watching how Baen goes. It's great there is that option. I agree the demand is there and I'm just an observer. Love your substack and YT channel!
As an Indie Science Fantasy writer, I find this article very informative. Thanks for posting!
For various reasons there will never was and never will be a market for ‘boy culture’ the way there is for ‘girl culture’ in publishing or any other art/culture industry because somewhat ironically girlhood—womanhood is able to stand on it’s own much easier it’s also inclusive in a way boyhood—manhood isn’t not due to ‘nature’ but do to a desire for exclusion (male culture) in contrast to a desire for inclusion (female/femme culture) that’s so inclusive that it now encompasses any/everyone feminine-presenting, woman or no. Not to imply that there’s no difference between say gay male culture or trans woman culture and cis/bio-girl culture; but it’s worth noting that there’s a lot of overlap between those cultural identities. I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume that a majority of gay men have an easier time being apart of ‘girl culture’ than they do ‘boy culture’. There’s been good Sci-Fi/genre fiction, most guys don’t show up for it I know because I’m a guy that does. Also on the topic of ‘edginess’ I think there should be some acknowledgment that there are ‘edgy’ authors making waves, they’re almost exclusively women putting the ‘Dark Romance’ genre on the map and putting it right next to ‘Extreme Horror’ in terms of content. Dark Romance is making money but when the topic of ‘edge’ comes up the default is like Shadow The Hedgehog or something. Obviously this is about boys and getting them to read but the sooner we can get to the place femme-oriented fiction is at (i.e. reckoning with the fact that there’s definitely a lot of young girls reading not-age-appropriate material) the sooner we can all get to the heart of the problem; the fact that due to social media’s omnipresence we don’t have the luxury of age bracket delineation anymore. All culture is all culture now, it’s all the same going in the same feeds (save for certain algorithmic silos). This is getting ranty so I’ll end it by saying I think the solution to getting boys to read is to move on from sex/gender-based marketing not because it’s irrelevant but because it’ll always work for femininity in a way it never can for (current) mainstream masculinity economically, more importantly more importantly there are worse things than boys reading ‘girl fiction’ especially now that best-selling women authors are exploring themes of sexuality and violence in ways that only fanfic communities saw coming a decade+ ago.
Omigosh Kristin. The choice of interview subject plus your thoughtful questions made this article. So much to think about, so much to learn from in such a tragically neglected space.
Not least, it's refreshing to see someone passionate and competent actually managing an iconic literary legacy, rather than simply just franchise-farming it.
Meanwhile, when I read category fiction I admire female authors doing characters and imagery (in which they often excel) while recognising full well that they're not tackling the problems I'm interested in, and this has been happening since the nineties. Never having experienced a follicular phase myself or planned to gestate a foetus I'm simply not obsessed with processes for selecting 'the one', and never shall be. It's not that relationships and individuals don't matter to men -- they do, but men have always had to learn to build to whatever opportunities present with whoever's around them at the time, so the who and why are evaluated against the what and the how, as you might expect. Exploiting the what and how toward who and why is more of a female prioritisation and to men can feel like an idealistic cheat.
My interests having been crowded out by three decades of well-deserved yet ill-targeted female literary productivity, I now mostly read creative non-fiction because it's closer to good stories about stuff I'd like to think about than the endless flavours of 'romantasy' (great term) flooding my favourite genres. If people who knew what they were talking about could write inventively about stuff that I already thought about, then I'd certainly read them more.
In any case, the reflection and research that went into this interview is much appreciated, Kristin. It's head and shoulders above what I normally see in literary commentary. Many kudos.